FLEXIBILITY BEATS DIET DOGMA
One of Australia's Most Popular Podcasts with Hundreds of 5 Star Reviews
Grab your FREE Ebook copy now!
Have you struggled to lose weight and keep it off?
Start your journey to boost metabolism and transform your body into a fat-burning powerhouse.
Episode 237:
Show Notes
Episode 237:
Transcript
Dr Mary Barson (0:04) Hello, my lovely friends. I am Dr Mary Barson.
Dr Lucy Burns (0:09) And I'm Dr Lucy Burns. We are doctors and weight management and metabolic health experts.
Both (0:16) And this is the Real Health and Weight Loss podcast!
Dr Lucy Burns (0:17) Hello gorgeous one, Dr Lucy here introducing my lovely friend Dr Mary but before I do that we're doing a thing called batch recording which is where you record a few episodes in a row so if you're watching this on YouTube you'll see we're wearing exactly the same clothes because we are recording this back-to-back and sometimes that's efficient and effective and other times what we like to do is to be able to slot relevant episodes in between. But yes, so here I am wearing my same blue aqua and orange shirt and Dr Mary you are looking gorgeous wearing your same floral arrangement.
Dr Mary Barson (00:52) I think we're both in resort wear I think is what we're which is very appropriate to the fabulous hot summery weather we're having at the moment. So as we lounge in our resort wear and record this fabulous podcast episode I am excited to talk about today's topic on ideology, dogma and tribalism and how this has a limited place in diet and lifestyle and the potential dangers of dogma and ideology.
Dr Lucy Burns (01:26) Yes, first of all, I guess what we'd like to talk about a bit is kind of the history of this phrase we're using of tribalism and where it comes from and why humans might like it or be attracted to it. It's part of human nature. Yeah, yeah can you talk us through this a bit?
Dr Mary Barson (01:51) Humans, we are naturally social animals and we tend to form tribes based on shared beliefs and shared practices and it has been a survival mechanism for us throughout our evolution. We survived and thrived as social animals in groups and gatherings. So for us, the need to belong to a social group, that sense of belonging, the sense for us to feel connected is extremely important and it's a good thing. We need to feel like we belong, we need to have that sense of connection and that sense of security within a group. It's so important to our psychology and even to our physical health. There's nothing inherently wrong with this sort of, we call it tribalism, this we want to belong to groups. And you see this on the football field, you see it all over the place, even in book groups, all kinds of places where people come together based on their shared beliefs and shared practices. But in the context of diet and lifestyle, I think that this instinct has a darker side that we just need to be aware of because it can often show up in people aligning themselves with a particular ideology. You know, they could be in the carnivore gang, the vegan gang, the keto gang, the health at any size gang. Although this creates a sense of belonging, which is great and has a lot of positive aspects, there are some potential dangers there, especially when you really get pulled into the ideology and the dogma.
Dr Lucy Burns (03:28) Yes, and I think you're right. The things that happen within these groups, not just diet and lifestyle, as you said, we see it with all sorts of things. And there's a group and I love to, I think you mentioned it, there's a sort of a set of rules or a set of things that people should do. And we see this in religious groups, for example, school groups, as you said, football codes. And one of the things that happens is that you're in your gang. And that means that no other gangs, you can't be in any other gangs. Yes, that's right. It sets up this sort of us and them.
Dr Mary Barson (04:16) Yeah, I think that that is the risk that you're belonging to a group can be positive. But those rigid ideologies, particularly when they're around, you know, lifestyle, it can really limit our personal growth and create that us versus them mentality. And that can be potentially damaging, especially when you get that sort of exclusive language that can develop. And you can get in this situation where this sort of polarisation, this sort of polarised thinking that you're either right or wrong. And there's this pressure to conform and it can create labels and judgments when we use that polarisation. You know, for example, you know, you can have someone who is a strict keto follower might criticise someone for eating an apple or a vegan who is strict to the plant-based follower may criticise someone for eating eggs or someone who strictly follows the healthy size movement might criticise someone for not wanting to eat a Tim Tam. And this label and judgment can be problematic, especially when we're criticising each other. But I think even more when we start criticising ourselves.
Dr Lucy Burns (05:26) Yes, absolutely. One of the things that happens when we do this, again, we've got this sort of external rules. And we see this a lot when people first join one of our programs, for example, where they ask permission, you know, can I eat this? Am I allowed to? So they're working their way around the rules, and I'm doing sort of air quotes. And they're a bit scared not to do it properly.
Dr Mary Barson (05:55) Yeah, they feel failure, you know, they're either going to do it right, or they're going to do it wrong. So they're either going to succeed or they're going to fail. And that all-or-nothing mindset, it's just it's unsustainable and damaging to long-term health for many people is damaging to long-term health.
Dr Lucy Burns (06:13) Yeah, absolutely. And I think the whole thing is, and this is one of your lovely statements, so I may not be even saying it right. But it's that thing that there is no one thing for everybody. Can you tell me what exactly that is again?
Dr Mary Barson (06:27) Yeah, there's no one size fits all. There is only one size that fits one sometimes. Yes.
Dr Lucy Burns (06:32) Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I went to a lecture recently where somebody even said that, like with weight loss, there is no one thing that works for every person. There is something that will work for every person. And sometimes it means that there you need, you need to do a few things. So a collection of things that will help you.
Dr Mary Barson (07:02) It's so personal. Health is so personal, and we need to be able to personalise it for ourselves. And that requires a degree of open-mindedness and being able to avoid the damaging dogma and the damaging ideology. So we can remain adaptable to our own needs, and even to our own evolving needs. You know, something may have worked for us five years ago, and it might not work anymore. And we might need to meet something new and a new strategy. And that's okay. That doesn't mean that you're a failure.
Dr Lucy Burns (07:33) No, no, I think it's really interesting that one of the damaging things around ideology and around this tribalism is that it makes for really good clickbait. So, you know, it's really easy. Yeah, I remember I used to think, God, imagine if you were a radio host, you know, one of those talkback radio hosts, because how easy would that job be? You just isolate a group, make some critical things. And then everyone rings in with their stories agreeing with you. I thought what a job, that'd be so good. Of course, if you don't agree with them, you're driving your car being furious that they're saying X, Y and Z. And you know, you want to ring in and complain and disagree with them. This divisiveness, which is often used to promote products, promote ideologies, promote religious beliefs can be anything and doesn't just have to be around food. But it is it is a powerful marketing technique. And I think we need to be mindful of it.
Dr Mary Barson (08:49) We do, because yes, things they can market to us, particularly when they think that we know us. And if you receive marketing messages that agree with your ideology, you can be even more susceptible. So I think that open-mindedness and flexibility is key here. It is okay to be tribal and to want to be part of a tribe. This is human. And there are lots of positive aspects of community and finding your community. We are very pro-community. We absolutely are. But we are not really pro that all-or-nothing mindset because that's what we said, I think can be unsustainable and damaging. But no, instead, we would like to foster this understanding that your health is really personal, to just maintain an openness to new ideas. So you and I Lucy, we're not tied to any one particular ideology. You know, we're open to new evidence, open to new viewpoints. And we try to sort of maintain, you know, inclusion versus exclusion. And a philosophy that we find helpful is to, you know, instead of clinging to certain dietary dogmas, it's just to focus on real food and real nourishing food, and the overall quality of our diet is really helpful. And recognise that those occasional deviations, indulgences, treats, whatever you are, they are okay. They are, you know, just a natural part of our progress and a natural part of life. And that because you ate an apple, you ate a Tim Tam, because of, you know, whatever deviation from, you know, whatever, whatever plan you had, doesn't mean that you're a failure. It doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. It doesn't mean that you don't belong. It's just part and parcel of life.
Dr Lucy Burns (10:48) No. And I think you're, you know, you're absolutely right. We see this a lot. I mean, obviously, you know, the obvious tribal warfare is the carnivore versus vegans. You know, there's, there's heaps of dialogue on that. There are Netflix videos, there are documentaries all over the place. And honestly, there are people who are doing carnivores and thriving. There are people doing vegan and plant-based. There are people, you know, if somebody were to say to me, plant-based diets are bad for everybody. Well, the evidence doesn't support that. That's actually not true. Do I want to do plant-based eating? No, I don't. Because for me, it's not part of, you know, what I think is going to make me healthy. But if somebody else wanted to do it, then I would support them.
Dr Mary Barson (11:37) Yeah, that's right. And find a way to make it work for them.
Dr Lucy Burns (11:41) One of the things I think is that people, again, get attracted, hoping that this tribe will be their missing piece, their silver bullet, the magic link. We've got to be just mindful of social media in this aspect because there is lots of stuff going on out there that is encouraging you to join their tribe and repel all other thoughts. And it's not just carnivore and vegan. It's again, it's real food and ultra-processed food. You know, there are people out there who will tell you, food is not medicine. Doesn't matter what you eat. Stop listening to all of those people recommending food. You know, I know a number of influential, influential influencers, there's a tautology for you, who are promoting this, that we need to stop telling people to stop eating processed food. And yet, I see at the other end of the spectrum, that meme that where you've got the two windows, and on one window is, I don't know, 200 people lined up. And on the other window, there's nobody or one person. And again, they will call out their different philosophies. So one will be, you know, drugs and prescriptions, 200 people lining up, lifestyle, nobody lining up. Doesn't have to be either or.
Dr Mary Barson (13:03) That's right. We do not live in the lifestyle-only camp or the medication-only camp. Why would you limit yourself to health so individual health is so personal? You want to use all the tools available to you. This is what we're doing in our clinics in our fabulous new clinic that is opening up. You want to be open-minded to all of your tools to all of the ideas and inclusive to all of the things that could help you and then just create your own lovely, you know, tailored approach that works for you, that is still flexible. So when the little wobbles of life wobble, you can still keep going without being derailed by these thoughts. Well, I've stuffed it now, so I can't possibly do it or my tribe is going to reject me, so I can't possibly do it. I need to reject myself because I can't maintain these rigid rules.
Dr Lucy Burns (14:00) Absolutely. And look, we've spent time in our, we have a big Facebook community called the Low Carb Real Food Community. And, you know, every now and then somebody will just post something that they're asking a question and it might be around, you know, is this brand of oil okay or something? And we will not allow a pile on. If somebody says, no, it's terrible. No, this is, you know, you should know better, like ridiculous things. They just get deleted and booted out of the group. Again, people writing things like, you know, chia seeds are poison, honestly. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not interested in anybody trying to create division or making other people feel bad for asking a question. I mean, that's the other thing that happens in these groups. They're meant to be safe and they're not.
Dr Mary Barson (15:00) Yeah, I know. I remember a long time ago, many years ago, in a Low Carb Facebook group, big Low Carb Facebook group, I posted what I thought was an interesting article about sulfurofonamides, which is a mouthful, which are these plant chemicals inside broccoli. And there's sort of this interesting article looking at the health benefits of these, you know, this particular phytonutrient. And it was something new. I didn't know about them before. I thought, oh, this is interesting. I'll share this. And then I did. I got some social media hate from these people in this low-carb community saying that I was a vegan fundamentalist and this was vegan propaganda. And it was all a little bit like, oh, huh. Okay. I wasn't prepared for that. Yeah, that toxicity from this tribalism. The fact that I was suggesting that broccoli had health benefits was triggering for people, which is really interesting because I was going against their rigid beliefs.
Dr Lucy Burns (16:01) Yeah. You know, the keyboard warrior phrase, a warrior with an A, is rife in some of these communities because people, I don't know why they feel this need to then enforce the rules. And honestly, it's ridiculous. Like if somebody's posting a picture of, you know, and it might be their gigantic steak and there's a bit of, I don't know, lettuce on the side or something. Everybody's piling on them for eating the lettuce. Yeah. Whereas other people may pile on them for eating the steak. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, you know, again, part of our philosophy is to foster, as you said, inclusion, to help people be able to make choices that they actually want to make and not feel beholden to external forces. And what we really want, and I think this is what everybody should aim for, is to be able to give people agency. And what that means is that you are the boss of you. You get to make choices, and decisions based on all of the understanding and knowledge of the benefits and consequences of whatever your chosen behaviour is, and that's okay. Except murdering the public. Don't do that. Please don't do that.
Dr Mary Barson (17:41) No, no, no, that's right. True. I mean, it's society's sort of general rules and laws. They're probably a good thing to abide by. And we encourage you to do that.
Dr Lucy Burns (17:50) Yeah. Yeah. But in general, as far as things like, you know, what you choose to eat when you choose to go to bed. Again, now there are people who are feeling bad because they're going to bed late. And again, it might be something where we go, well, you know, let's think about why that's happening for you. And rather than just shaming people into changing their behaviour, it's really unpacking, unravelling, why are we doing this behaviour? Because here's the newsflash, whatever behaviour we're doing, there is something in it for us.
Dr Mary Barson (18:22) Yes, there's always some kind of reward that our brain is after. That's why we're doing it.
Dr Lucy Burns (18:27 ) Yeah. And so you might not even be aware of it. And that's okay. We unpack that, unravel it. And then you get to decide and make choices that perhaps are going to serve you better. But again, you are the boss of you. If you choose not to do it. What's this phrase I love? You do you.
Dr Mary Barson (18:46) That's right. You do you. And if you can do that whilst also being part of a welcoming community, that's excellent because community is important. But we need we do need to be able to do it ourselves.
Dr Lucy Burns (19:01) Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you're in a community that doesn't make you feel good about yourself, that's not you. That's the community. And you know, they're failing you, not you failing them.
Dr Mary Barson (19:17) Yes. Wonderful. You are the boss of you beautiful people.
Dr Lucy Burns (19:21) Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you know, where we're all hanging out in our communities at Real Life Medicine. So yeah, come join us. We will welcome you. Yes, we will welcome you. We'll never judge you. We will hopefully make you feel good about yourself and then empower you to make decisions that you're happy with. Because honestly, what I want is for everybody to go to bed without any regrets. You know, whatever their choices, because you truly are the boss of you.
Dr Mary Barson (19:51) That sounds lovely. See you later, gorgeous ones.
Dr Lucy Burns (19:53) Talk soon. Bye now.
Dr Lucy Burns (19:59) The information shared on the Real Health and Weight Loss Podcast, including show notes and links, provides general information only. It is not a substitute, nor is it intended to provide individualised medical advice, diagnosis or treatment, nor can it be construed as such. Please consult your doctor for any medical concerns.
